Motoralternativ vid Dieselkonvertering av en TGB 11-13-20

[Fredrik L]

Inför min konvertering funderade jag massor på att stoppa i en automat men det föll bort av 2 orsaker:

1 det fanns ingen rent mekanisk mercalåda med överväxel och att ligga på 1:1 var inget alternativ för mig.

2 jag vågade inte experimentera. Jag har helt enkelt vare sig tid eller pengar att lägga på expriment. Tex. Skulle en personbilslåda klara av en dubbelt så tung TGB.

 

Skulle man ta en komplett motor/låda/fdlåda med automat från en bil i samma storlek så vet man att det funkar men problmet med utväxlingen är förmodligen fortfarande kvar.

 

Jag har aldrig kört med automat i skogen men kan tänka mig att det är väldigt smidigt och bekvämt. Samtidigt kan jag inte påstå att jag upplever den manuella lådan som ett problem, vare sig nu eller när jag körde original.

 

Så summa summarum är att jag inte ångrar en sekund att jag valde en 6 petad manuell låda med 0:83 på 6'an. Dessutom är 1'an lägre växlad än en tgb låda så jag smyger fram i skogen även utan automat

 

Det här är bara mina åsikter/erfarenheter.

[tiagra]

Manual boxes tend to have a longer final ratio, which makes them suitable for diesel conversions. But also 1st gear is usually much longer, as they put torque into the converter instead of misusing a clutch. The problem will b the fuel consumption, as the torque converters lock up only at pretty high revs on the highway. So a manual diesel might go with 10-13l/100kms on average, where I would supect the auto to take 2-3Liters more, depending on driving profile of course. I also though about the auto, but at least the Toyota auto (A440F) seems to be mechanically longer than its manual counterpart (H55F) and is therefore not usable for me. I have seena 6x6 with Landrover 300 and auto in Finland.

[Knudsen]

My chosen kombinatiom is:

TGB 20 chassis with Toyota HDJ 80 drivetrain (4.2 l turbo diesel with 5-speed, transfer) and Bodie.

 

Gearing ratio should be as high as possible, ie tires, differentials, transfer and / or transmission.

 

The text is made with help of Google translate.

[65corvette]

Nissan patrol 3.3 td vældig god pris og et moment der bare trækker og trækker 5 gear o,83 i 5 gear

[darius_ro1]

Hi Martin,

 

I have seen  Daniel's conversion long time ago. I was thinking about tilting cab for a while, but I will stick to the original solution, perhaps a little lifted if the G steering box impose it. 

My c304 is a radio truck and I am still thinking if to keep the original box shell, rebuilding it a little longer or to build a brand new one a little wider and taller. For the times when the box is not used, I was thinking to build a flat bed that should include an extension to the existing cabin in order to have 5 seats.

 

At the present moment I have all the axles dismantled and rebuilt with new standard automotive seals conversion (like the one made by flying spanners) and complete new brakes and brake pipes.

Two of them are finished (excepting the paint job), but still have the front one where I plan to make a king ping conversion.

 

In the mean time, I was looking for some good engine around here. Mercedes engines are very affordable to be bought as parts or together with the entire car, but I am in a dilema raised by the electronics of the last TD models ('95-'99). Several specialists made the point against electronics very strong in case of Mercs.

 

I found some toyota 1hd fte with low km, but is to long and heavy.

 

Lately I was looking for toyota KZT 3 l engine, but still not found it yet. I am aiming for Toyota 4 runner/hilux surf RHD which have lower prices, but no interésting ones are on the market now. some speak against it, but it would be possible to use the entire driveline.

 

I do not know yet what steering column will use, but in any case astrovan is a very rare car here. probably will look for some Mercedes column if fits.

 

I am also trying to modify the ET of the wheels, but it seems to be not so easy to find some good specialist that has a lathe large enough for theese rims. I have one already modified, but did not came out good. I will try again soon. Anyway, all of the original rims are not perfectly round and that is not helping.

 

I will post some pictures as soon as will seriouselly start with the chassis and the cab. Now I have only the axles almost done and a lot of researching and planning.

 

We take our time snowmobiling in the mountains during the weekends, so little contruction time was remaining during this period.

[Fredrik L]

Hi darius.

 

I have a 97 OM606 300td in my tgb. The 606 has an electric pump but the pump from an OM603 fits on the 606 and with that setup u end up with a mechanical engine that is more fuel efficient and powerful than a OM603td

 

[tiagra]

I still have to open up all my axles, but I'll do that anyway upon converting to 5.99

 

About electronics and engine: I'm running a fully electronic TDi in my syncro. For at least 170000kms now. I didn't have a single electric failure! None! You have to hook it up one time and finito. We drove 50000kms all over Asia in 2012 and the engine was running just like at home - from 0 to 5200 meters altitude, from -35 to 45 deg Celsius, tar, mud, rock, desert.

 

You don't have to tinker with the electronics at all, because it is fully self-contained system which you simply move from one vehicle to another. The only connections to the Volvo is ignition and vacuum aswell as some temperature sensors for your dashboard. Easy as pie! I know there are so many people horribly afraid of all the evil electronics and they tend to project their own shortcomings in hooking up a simple light bulb at home onto the entire modern car industry. I think that's all complete nonsense.

 

If you plan to take your car to 1.5m of water, then that'd be my ONLY argument to go fully mechanic. Seriously. Just do it properly and off you go!

 

I'm btw also looking at Mercedes steering columns as the astro variant is too rare. Daniel used the rubber boot from the Vario, I already know that. The column itself is still undecided, been googling a lot lately but I guess I'll have to go to a scrapyard and check out a bunch of columns personally. W124 looked pretty nice, though I'm still into tilting the cabin as of now, which restricts the choice of column even more. Once that issue has been decided 100%, I will go look for suitable columns again

 

Hope to stay in touch, go Toyota!

[darius_ro1]

Hi guys,

 

I am glad to hear of your experience.

Fredrik is the pump the only thing you gave up or also other parts (EGR, etc)?  I was discussing that with some mechanics, but they were not so confident.

 

How many HP did you get from this set up?

I like this idea.

 

I also had and stil have a lot of electronic in some pick-up trucks that have seen al lot of adverse conditions, but the issue was the confidence of the mechanics in the their ability to get a totally reliable assembly when a lot of electronics is involved. some have done it here, but took them a lot of time and gave up some of the parts prone to defects (like EGR). The ecu software had to be also rewritten.

 

In my opinion and some other engineer friends is perfectly doable, but they are not sure about the result. Mercedes electronics is viewed by them as a special case, being harder to adapt than others.

 

I would like to say go toyota, but for the present moment I have to say go Mazda! (BT 50). Tee next one will probably be Toyota.

 

Why do you want to convert to 5.99?  more speed?

 

I have just ordered some Cooper STT 315x75x16.

 

I hope to solve soon the rims modification issue.

 

[darius_ro1]

Here are some pics of the axle works.

[Fredrik L]

Hi guys,

 

I am glad to hear of your experience.

Fredrik is the pump the only thing you gave up or also other parts (EGR, etc)? I was discussing that with some mechanics, but they were not so confident.

 

How many HP did you get from this set up?

I like this idea.

 

Why do you want to convert to 5.99? more speed?

 

 

 

Hi darius

 

My engine is completly mechanical. EGR etc are removed.

 

I used the 6mm elements from the electric 606 pump instead of the 5,5 mm elements in the mechanical 603 pump and tuned it a bit.

I guess that i have at least the same hp as original (177) but i dont know for sure.

 

The 5:99 gearing is perfect for lowering the revs.

For exampel: An original TGB 13 revs 3250 rpm at 75 km/h with 35" tyres. Thats 500 rpm more than the TGB 11 with 5:99

My TGB 13 revs 2250 rpm at 75 km/h with 35" tyres. ( 5:99 gears and overdrive)

 

//Fredrik

[darius_ro1]

Hi Fredrik,

 

did you change also the turbocharger? I am not sure, but the original one of the 606 engine is not with variable geometry? I have seen some mentioning about the need to install a turbo actuator from other engine.

 

what gearbox did you use?

 

the revs is a good reason. is the offroad low speed capability not affected?

what did you change? the final pinion of the portal or something else?

 

darius

[Fredrik L]

Nope it´s the original turbo,non vnt,

The original turbo has a vacuum operated wastegate. I used a pressure gage that sends a signal to a vacuum solenoid valve when the pressure exceed 1,2 bar.

works fine for me

 

I use a 6 speed merceders gearbox. First gear is lower than on the original gerbox so i hav no problem driving slow offroad.

 

To change gear ratio you have to get a new crownwheel and pinion.

 

//Fredrik

[tiagra]

Darius:

 

You can't change the portal gearing, as the housing is too small for a bigger upper gear. What you can change is ring/pinion in the diffs from 9/31 to 11/32. These are available from Jez/flyingspanners AS WE SPEAK as I mentioned above. Those big diesels really don't like revving too much... that's why I just ordered 3 sets for my TGB13 and I know others did aswell. So don't know whether Jez still has some left or not. 3 sets were £1140 plus shipping. Might be worth a thought...

 

My calculation with 37" tires is 2450 rpm at 85km/h. That should be fine for the Toyota

 

.martin

[darius_ro1]

dear martin,

 

I realized how stupid was that question just after posting it.

You are absolutely right. I had in mind some "bolt on" portals manufactured in two different ratios.

I did not pay to much attention to this aspect until now, but it looks serious. I will keep that in mind.

thank you for the information.

I think that you are using the entire driveline from Toyota.

what is the lenght of it?  weight?

did you have to modify the traverse of the chassis or move the engine to the front?

 

darius

[tiagra]

Hey darius, the 12H-T is about the heaviest engine you can get, because it is 4ltr 6cyl inline...... It weighs 362kg i think. It has been moved backwards to avoid colision with the front axle and yes, the traverse in the frame has been moved backwards about 20cm. It's not my work though, the welding on the frame incl. new engine mounts have been done by professionals - i don't even have a suitable MIG/MAG welding machine, I only have TIG

[darius_ro1]

Hi Martin,

 

I found today one like yours, without turbo and one KZT 3 l, but the guy selling them is asking quite a lot.

Before this I found one 1HD-FTE (with only 70.000 km) with automatic gearbox. Is seems nice to have 204 HP, but is a very long (1,8 m) asembly including drive line and the electronics could make life more complicated.

was the cab also modified or raised in order to fit the engine inside?

 

darius

[darius_ro1]

Fredrik,

 

what type of gearbox did you use and from what car model? E klasse , Sprinter...?

What ratios?

 

darius

[tiagra]

I think the cab will be raised by 8cm, but since I need that for the G wagon power steering anyway, it's not a big sacrifice - more room for bigger tires with snowchains )

[Fredrik L]

Fredrik,

 

what type of gearbox did you use and from what car model? E klasse , Sprinter...?

What ratios?

 

darius

 

 

I got i from a OM111 engine (E-class)

 

I dont have the part nr

 

1-4.45

2-2.61

3-1.72

4-1.24

5-1

6-0.83

[darius_ro1]

thank you.

 

did any of you guys modified the rims' ET?

have you seen any posts on this issue on this forum?

 

I need to solve that asap. I took them to a company here, but the first one done is not ok.

[Knudsen]

Hi Martin,

 

I found today one like yours, without turbo and one KZT 3 l, but the guy selling them is asking quite a lot.

Before this I found one 1HD-FTE (with only 70.000 km) with automatic gearbox. Is seems nice to have 204 HP, but is a very long (1,8 m) asembly including drive line and the electronics could make life more complicated.

was the cab also modified or raised in order to fit the engine inside?

 

darius

 

Hi Darius

 

 

I use 1HD FT, in my Overlander, which is the same engine as 1HD FTE WITHOUT electrical distributor pump.

Power you determines more or less yourself. I have seen those engines with 500 hp.

In my TGB 20 chassis should I have my 1HD T that is physically the same as the other two engines but only with 12 valves.

The gearbox might become a TREMEC T56 6 speed (0.50: 1) or a Toyota H151F and transfer.

 

What I'm interested in knowing where the 1HD FTE and at what price. It is only out of curiosity.

 

Henrik

[65corvette]

Nissan Patrol med gearkasse tilsalg i DK hvis nogle skulle have interesse i den

 

http://www.dba.dk/nissan-patrol-33/id-89810220/

[darius_ro1]

Hi guys!

 

I do not know is my post is in the right place, but however:

 

does any of you have some detailed pictures of the original transfer case modification in order to be coupled with merc engine and gearbox as Daniel did.

 

I plan to keep the original case, but closing it and adding a flange. 

 

I did not separate the gearbox and transfer case and would like to make an ideea of the big picture.

 

thank you

[Nowak]

hey darius

 

it is not always so easy to understand the Swedish language, I also have problems and I'm from Denmark

just found his thread for his build thread, where images are 

 

http://www.terrangbil.net/forum/index.php?/topic/5259-ombyggnad-av-tgb13/

[darius_ro1]

Thank you Nowak.

I had a look of Daniel's build.

The translation is not always perfect, but it works.

 

Regards,

 

Darius